Fairy tales for adults

Wouter Van Hemel wouter at pair.com
Thu Feb 13 20:57:42 PST 2003

On Fri, 14 Feb 2003, Steve Bougerolle wrote:

> Oh bollocks.  It's only dangerous if you read things into my answer that
> aren't there.  I was commenting on logic & reason.

And I was asking about your thought in respect to the universe being
'planned' by god or just randomly submitted to basic laws of nature.

And if I read things between the lines in your answer, that could be taken
as a sign some answers couldn't be found in that answer. Free will is
by no means irrelevant, when discussing religion and 'god'.

> Your argument contains no consideration of perspective.  This is what
> completely cripples it in my mind (and all similar discussions of free
> will).

I don't need perspective to show my point. If you think the universe is
planned by god, than I'm by no means responsible for my actions.

If you disagree, show me where you draw the line between god's will/plan
and your own free will.

> > There is no absolute way to interprete the wish of a higher power, if one
> > even exists
> So what?  I don't insist on absolute answers.

You can take out the word 'absolute', if you wish. That doesn't change my

> > Every attempt is highly subjective, and history has shown,
> > only leads to disrespect, hate and immense suffering.
> Practically everything done by people involves disrespect, hate and
> immense suffering.  From what I can see the worst cases of this in all
> history occur when people assume that they are the pinnacles of
> existence.

... and god was always on their side.

> > The world is torn apart by several groups who have opinions over things
> > that can not even be shown, proven or understood. They all believe another
> > fairy tale, which many are willing to defend to death... it's fuckin'
> > hilarious in a sad way.
> What's hilarious is that you can't see the same dynamic at work here.

Oh, but I do. I have no intention or desire to prove your opinion wrong,
or make you agree with my views. What I want to find out, out of interest,
is where you draw the line between the will of 'god', and your own.

You see, as a non-believer, every claim that something is god's wish or
word is greeted with the same level of sarcasm as someone claiming to hear
"voices" or seeing "ghosts". Not only that, but even submitting themselves
to these things.

So, out of defensive reasons, I would like to know how far you actually
attach importance to what you blindly believe (you can not prove god or
his intentions) as opposed to what you perceive yourself.

You said yourself that 'god' is a level of abstractism, complexity,
dimension (or whatever you'd like to call it) that can not be apprehended
by human beings.

On what do you base your ideas of god's word then? Enlighten me: what does
god want? How can you claim insight in what god's wishes would be, if you
can't even prove his existence?

I really do want to understand Christian reasoning, but I seem to fail.
The whole logic seems flawed.

> Which of us is answering calmly and patiently, and which is getting
> excited and carried away, Wouter?

I'm not getting carried away, I'm just a foul-mouthed bastard. :)
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