Fairy tales for adults

James Iwanek chthon at chthon-uk.com
Thu Feb 13 05:18:05 PST 2003

Jochen Schroeder wrote:

> Am Don, 2003-02-13 um 04.31 schrieb Andrew Calkin:
>> Hiya,
>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2003 at 03:24:34AM +0800, Steve Bougerolle wrote:
>> > 
>> > On Thu, 2003-02-13 at 02:27, Björn Lindberg wrote:
>> > > The speed of light in different media have been verified
>> > > through countless experiments.
>> > 
>> > So?  This is completely irrelevant.
>> > 
>> > > So, how would you explain your answer to Ian's question? That the
>> > > stars we see are not really stars in the astronomical sense, but
>> > > rather small lamps not very far from the earth?
>> > 
>> > First, I don't appreciate your witless sarcasm, Björn.
>> > 
>> > Now, to the point: Ian's question was loaded; it had an assumption in
>> > it
>> > that we are not obligated to accept, and I do not accept it.  I
>> > consider in such cases the correct way to answer is to tackle the
>> > assumption and
>> > give a more general answer.  Here, the fundamental point of discussion
>> > was whether an intelligent and educated person could believe a literal
>> > reading of Genesis, and the broad answer (simplified for you) is "of
>> > course they can, it just depends on their background and their values
>> > and which particular things they are interested in proving".
>> > 
>> Just for a point, i'd like to state that whilst an atheist (I find
>> personally the idea of the existence of God and the tales of the bible,
>> whilst of incredible value to society, a tad simplistic), I think that
>> Ian/Bjorn's query can be answered in quasi-scientific terms also whilst
>> holding on to a literal interpretation of the Bible:
>> By assuming that it would take millions of years for light from distant
>> objects to reach the Earth, and so the Earth could not have been created
>> in 6 days, 6,000 years ago, the assumption is implicitly made that the
>> universe was created at a state of rest- that being at the time of
>> creation, light began to be emitted from any sources, and propagation
>> radially at a given rate from that time. Assuming that the universe was
>> created at a given time, would it not be reasonable to think that any
>> beings placed on the Earth would "freak out" if the environment was
>> changing rapidly, whilst approaching a steady-state response (a "warm-up"
>> period), and so in order to reduce this, create a universe that was
>> already set in a given state (light from distant objects is "placed" such
>> that it is impinging on the Earth, to stop confusion/panic if suddenly at
>> a later point in time stars begin to "appear".
>> An analogy would be in placing a pendulum on a table. Given knowledge of
>> when the pendulum was placed, and future forces exerted on the pendulum,
>> can only give an indication of the current postiion, velocity,
>> acceleration (current state) etc of the pendulum _IF_ the initial
>> position, velocity and acceleration (intial state) at the time of placing
>> is known. The argument of Ian/Bjorn suggests implicitly an assumption of
>> the initial state to be one of rest (for pendulum, x=0, x'=0, x''=0).
>> The same argument could be used for the existence of dinosaurs etc, where
>> if there was nothing before, confusion/panic may exist upon the
>> "starting" of the system.
>> I just wanted to show that it _is_ kinda possible to argue, even from a
>> literal interpretation of the bible, using a semblance of scientific
>> theory.
>> Unfortunately, I intuitively don't believe in what I write, but that is
>> due to my pre-existing bias. :-P
>> //Andrew
> Well, that would be a pretty deceiving god then, and would certanly
> contradict the base of christianity that god is an all good and all
> powerful being. I think all good would exclude deceiving.
> Cheers
> Jochen

but is deception inherently evil?

remember that the bible was written origionally for simple people, they
would not have been able to comprehend all the vast scientific knowlage
that we have today so the bible uses stories to explain things so that
anyone can absorb the data it is up to us to interprit it, its only our
greed and lust for power that twists the words.

i myself am not a christian but i can see the underlying truths in every

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