Religion (Was Re: Music)

Albert Wagner alwagner at
Sat Jun 15 04:18:17 PDT 2002

On Saturday 15 June 2002 08:04 am, Archaic wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 06:52:03PM -0500, Albert Wagner wrote:
> > I don't think government is the primary problem.  I think the bad
> > government
> Human nature in general is the problem. Some will always be greedy and
> some will always want to rule. Both are bad but they will always occur.
> > we have now is an effect, not a cause of the problems that irritate
> > and frighten most of us.  I think that the real problem is greed,
> > capitalism gone berserk.  Our current government is a shell of what it
> > should/could be because it is in the hands of the best that money can
> > buy.  I believe that there are true and honest men in politics, but
> > they must compromise with evil, and eventually become what they
> > tolerate.  I believe that with two simple bills we can cure 90% of our
> > ills: (1) the line item veto to cut way down on pork and (2) public
> > funding of elections to eliminate the influence of corporations and
> > the individual rich.  In short: one man, one vote NOT one dollar, one
> > vote.
> Better than a line item veto (which puts too much power into one
> person's hands), how about not allowing congress to add any special pet
> projects to a bill? As it stands now, crap gets piggybacked on to
> practically every proposal that's made.

That would be fine with me.  Any way that works.

> As far as public funding of elections, I could agree to that as long as
> strict controls were in place to limit how much could be spent. But that
> is still only idealisic, for are we to hire surveillance teams to make
> sure that each and every candidate in all branches of gov't aren't
> taking bribes? I don't see being able to stop bribe taking. I propose
> term limits to at least keep someone from getting dug in so deep that we
> can't even figure out what all they are doing.

You are right that it would be hard to police bribes. But it is getting harder 
and harder to hide and launder money.  It would certainly put the brakes on.

> > I don't think that you have looked deep enough into the fog.  The real
> > enemy of the people is not the government.  They are simply the the
> > mask that big money uses to hide who's really in charge.  You are
> That is because we allow business to be considered an entity unto itself
> much like a person is. But there is also a fine line that must be walked
> to preserve freedom. Unfortunately people generally walk way to the left
> or way to the right of that line. Hell, just getting closer to the line
> would be a start. The most disheartening truth, though, is that gov't
> isn't anymore corrupt than society. If we have greed in society, we will
> have greed in gov't. That is sad, but unavoidable. Politicians are just
> a microcosm of the general populace.

Yes.  The worst decision in the history of the supreme court was deciding that 
a corporation was a "person."

> > This ought to be enough to keep us going for awhile :-)
> Yep!

I think that we have found common ground to build on.

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