Archaic archaic at
Fri Jun 14 12:20:16 PDT 2002

On Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 10:17:28PM +0200, Fabio Fracassi wrote:
> > It didn't say it wasn't revenge. Hey, regardless of people's beliefs in
> > religion, I hold that we are still animals with animalistic instinct. In
> > the above situation, I would not only use my animalistic instinct to
> > kill, 
> Until here I agree.
> > but I would use my higher consiousness to justify it and defend
> > it. I never claimed to be perfect! :) 
> Why? Why justify it, why not stay with the second statement, and admit that 
> you would comit an injustice under that circumstances.

We all justify EVERYTHING. I'm justifying my beliefs right now. Doesn't
make them right, just different. It just all boils down to I believe
this, you believe that. I don't know how to further elaborate without
repeating myself.

> That makes you no(-t much) better than the attacker. 

I'm fine with the not much better, if that is what you will think of me.
Because I know that my family (and society in general) is more important
that what one thinks of me.

> An Eye for an Eye, that was the concept of justice 2000 years ago.

Still is in many parts of the world. Damn gov't screwed it up by killing
the wrong people. :)

> I think in every civilized contry bloodrevenge and self justice have been 
> outlawed, and rightly so. 

Vigilantism, yes. Defense no. If I was to hunt down the killer, that
would be outlawed. Even in this country, there is a good chance of
prison time for it. But killing the attacker at the time of attack is
totally different. Higher concepts like revenge don't really enter into
the mind at the time of extreme circumstances.

> In the example you gave It would be "exagerated emergency defense" here in 
> Germany. You tecnically get a Murder in the second, but won't get punished 
> for it becase it  was in respose to an emergency. 
> I think this is an justice. Your "animal nature" gets taken into account, but 
> you don't get the reedemtion of beeing innocent.

Not punished? Let's assume I am a citizen of Germany and this situation
has occurred. Now, when I go to get a job, is that record of conviction
going to show up? If it does, then I have been punished by being
subjected to the scrutiny of the prospective employer. He will get his
own concepts about me in his head. I would tend to think that if you
were that employer, you probably wouldn't hire me. That's still

> BTW. I realy like this discussion, has been a long time since I had so
> much fun discussing ethics.

Same here. As long as people don't get nasty about it. Especially since
we have no way of judging the tone of voice people would use, but are
left with strictly trying to interpret the words.


Morality is always the product of terror; its chains and
strait-waistcoats are fashioned by those who dare not trust others,
because they dare not trust themselves, to walk in liberty.

- Aldous Huxley

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