Fabio Fracassi turiya at
Fri Jun 14 13:17:28 PDT 2002

On Friday 14 June 2002 19:36, Archaic wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 09:03:20PM +0200, Fabio Fracassi wrote:
> > Hm, I don't realy get your point, here. It sounds interesting, and I have
> > heard simmilar arguments, but I dont see how it relates to what I have
> > written.
> It wasn't really a coupterpoint. You crought up evil so that's just
> where I decided to put that blurb.
> > > and I will defend that right for anyone.
> >
> > As I said, although very understandable it isn't a right.
> > I know that You want to show an example of "emergency defence", but if
> > you claim a right to kill an attacker, that is simple lowdown revenge.
> It didn't say it wasn't revenge. Hey, regardless of people's beliefs in
> religion, I hold that we are still animals with animalistic instinct. In
> the above situation, I would not only use my animalistic instinct to
> kill, 

Until here I agree.

> but I would use my higher consiousness to justify it and defend
> it. I never claimed to be perfect! :) 

Why? Why justify it, why not stay with the second statement, and admit that 
you would comit an injustice under that circumstances.

> BTW, we ALL justify what we do.
> Right or wrong is just a matter of opinion. I choose not to randomly
> kill (as most do), but I also would choose to kill to protect my family
> or self. That is IMO the quickest, cleanest, most just form of justice.

IMO that is way beyond the point where justice ended.

> > Sure. Translated to your example above it reads: Even if you dont respect
> > my (or my loved ones) lives, I do respect yours.
> You are reading WAY too much into it. I said that goes for all RIGHTS.
> You do not have the right to kill my family,

Of course Nobody has a right to kill your family (I would feel a bit 
uncomfortable with keeping your personae)

>  so I do not have to respect your actions. 

That makes you no(-t much) better than the attacker. 
An Eye for an Eye, that was the concept of justice 2000 years ago.

I think in every civilized contry bloodrevenge and self justice have been 
outlawed, and rightly so. 
In the example you gave It would be "exagerated emergency defense" here in 
Germany. You tecnically get a Murder in the second, but won't get punished 
for it becase it  was in respose to an emergency. 
I think this is an justice. Your "animal nature" gets taken into account, but 
you don't get the reedemtion of beeing innocent.

BTW. I realy like this discussion, has been a long time since I had so much 
fun discussing ethics.


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